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Hardcore ladders
 
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I'm sure we all want to argue which mode is best, but the truth is, what we think is best is what we are used to playing.

I may seem unknown to you, and I should, since I've pretty much never played in ESL. But the only reason as to why I'm still new to this league is because of the lack of HC ladders. Look around, try to find any league with HC ladders. There are some, TWL is one, but it's U.S based so that's a no go, for me at least.

So what is stopping ESL from adding HC ladders? Other than pride and hatred against "camping", I see no real reason.

Some argue that camping rewards players in hardcore. Yeah perhaps, but only because they are smarter than you. If you take Counter Strike as an example,  since when was camping not rewarding? It's a part of the game, "defense", "defending", you know. Just like in BF3, it is a part of the game.

Let me just spontaneously list a few things about each mode so we can compare.

Normal mode:
* Halo shield (Well, who needs 3-4 headshots with an M4A1 or two hits with a bolt action sniper to die? You guessed it: Halo.)
* Health Regeneration (Oh, so why is there a medkit? For ranking up?)
* Vehicle Health Regeneration (Hey, is this a sci-fi game? I guess they won't need engineers in the future then.)
* 3D Spotting (removed on ESL, but it's still meant to be there)
* Crosshair (even though we have lasersights and ADS, a huge useless crosshair on the screen is fine too)
* Health indicator on HUD
* Bullet count indicator on HUD
* Spawn on anyone in your squad (Squad leader is officially, useless; and so is a couple of tactics)

Hardcore mode:
* Team damage (Unable to shoot through my teammate to hit an enemy without being an ass to my team)
* Barely any HUD
* Camping (or rather, defensive play)
* Squad leader (Squad leader can spawn on anyone in squad, but the rest can only spawn on him/her. This calls for tactical thinking, go figure.) 

Alright, now let's compare and see which mode gameplay-wise (not experience-wise) fits best with the following games: Halo (console) and Counter Strike (pc).

My opinion, which should be most opinions if you read my post, this is the answer:

Normal mode resembles Halo more than Counter Strike
Hardcore mode resembles Counter Strike more than Halo

If you really think about it. Why do people hate on BF3's hardcore? There is no real reason other than the good old "it's easier because you kill faster". I don't hate on Softcore either, it's fun to run and gun in public, randomness is a fine way to relax. But think some more on it, since when did "softcore" and "hardcore" become known to gaming? I'm sure there's some less played games who did this before, but the answer I'm looking for is COD. Yes, I have reason to believe most people say no to Hardcore because of COD.

Even if you disagree with me, spam me with hate posts. You should know that I know more than 30 clans who stopped playing BF3 because there are no HC ladders. All my friends on b-log (143) play hardcore, except for one. Every single one of them wants to find a league with HC ladders. Some even tried TWL, to realise that it was unbearable to play with 200 ping.  Besides, the one friend who doesn't play softcore admits that hardcore is too hard for him.
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Lol are you serious? U dont even need to aim in hardcore, just spray around a bit and some bullet will hit and kill almost instant emoticon-smile

Hardcore=noobcore

E: TK is on in ESL games.
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Lux4ri wrote:
Lol are you serious? U dont even need to aim in hardcore, just spray around a bit and some bullet will hit and kill almost instant emoticon-smile

Hardcore=noobcore

E: TK is on in ESL games.


Although, the one who does aim kills the sprayer. Well isn't that funny, that's how it is in every game.

Here's an example:

* Aimer walks out from a corner while aiming.
* Sprayer flies out from another corner infront of you.

Who do you think takes the kill? Unless the aimer sucks and my calculations are wrong, the sprayer will have no chance and dies instantly by a headshot. This is exactly how it is in Counter Strike and on there you don't even get to respawn.

Noobcore? So that's the definition of Hard then! But hey, if you missed it before let me tell you again: "There is no real reason other than the good old "it's easier because you kill faster"".

What you just posted here was something you snapped up from someone else; word of mouth and rumors can be devious things.
143 friends, U so kewl.

TWL ladder... Seriously?
That is even less than Clan Base.
If you take TWL as an example, you should not play ESL.


And HC takes away the skill. If you are getting shot, you will die 90% of the time. While in normal, you can respond to the enemy fire and try to kill the other guy, even with the suppression effect, which is already penalising enough.
And then comes the Spawn on SL only: bad.

HC is just a bad game mode. No skill, only spam. Take a caming spot and you win. Do you have more flags than the other in the beginning? Chances are WAY higher that you will win the match, since taking flags is getting way harder is everyone is just camping.
HC takes away the skill and a lot of tactical gameplay.


Oh, and please do tell:
Which 30 "clans" have stopped playing BF3?
If you stop playing a game, because there is no HC mode in a league/ladder, then you have nothing to look for in those leagues to begin with.
mweagle89 wrote:
143 friends, U so kewl.

TWL ladder... Seriously?
That is even less than Clan Base.
If you take TWL as an example, you should not play ESL.


And HC takes away the skill. If you are getting shot, you will die 90% of the time. While in normal, you can respond to the enemy fire and try to kill the other guy, even with the suppression effect, which is already penalising enough.
And then comes the Spawn on SL only: bad.

HC is just a bad game mode. No skill, only spam. Take a caming spot and you win. Do you have more flags than the other in the beginning? Chances are WAY higher that you will win the match, since taking flags is getting way harder is everyone is just camping.
HC takes away the skill and a lot of tactical gameplay.


Oh, and please do tell:
Which 30 "clans" have stopped playing BF3?
If you stop playing a game, because there is no HC mode in a league/ladder, then you have nothing to look for in those leagues to begin with.


Yes, 143 friends, I don't think I need to comment on that.

It seems your pride is high indeed, but did you really need to show it in such a silly matter? Re-read the section about TWL and hardcore ladders, I was saying we have nowhere else to go right now. Not trying to take away anyones pride and say "even TWL has them, so ESL must have them!" like you thought when writing down your post so quickly, eager to take your pride back.

What do you mean "clans", clans aren't real clans just because they don't play on ESL? Surely you must understand that it does not matter to one as biased as you to read a list of clan tags, it won't convince anyone.

Oh and last but not least, what do you mean with "If you stop playing a game, because there is no HC mode in a league/ladder, then you have nothing to look for in those leagues to begin with". It just doesn't make any sense to me, you're hating so much on HC mode when no one is forcing you to play it. Yet, if you turn the tables around, say normal mode was hardcore mode, and hardcore mode didn't exist. Instead you have softcore mode which is todays normal mode. Would you play softcore then? Because if I'm not mistaken, most people only play normal mode because it is called normal mode, not because it is better than hardcore mode.
You guys are all making assumptions on what hardcore is like because you may have played a little bit died and said wow hardcore is for noobs and probably flipped and threw a keyboard.

If hardcore is for noobs and you find yourself dieing a lot... your being killed my noobs right? What does that make you? Even more of a noob? You guys have to play a couple games of it to trully understand a game of hardcore.

So what the enemy can kill faster so can you. That means it's equal gameplay. The more skilled player wins. How you use you surroundings to take cover, how fast your reflexes and aim is and the person who is able to think on their toes fastest will win. Leaty always wins against me 1)He's and insane sniper with great accurasy 2)He's quick to respond, he has great reflexes 3)He knows his surroundings 4)He knows how to communicate with his team and play objectivly. 6 out of 10 times Leaty will win unless I catch him off guard or he's in the middle of a fire fight.

Halo is a perfect example of "softcore" although halo is by far more extreme. Halo the person who wins is the person who fires first. That's it  nothing great about that game other than it's amazing story line. 

But before you judge hardcore gaming play it first and play it again so you have an accurate hypothesis on what you think about hardcore gaming. Have you guys ever heard of the quote "Don't judge a book by it's cover"?
.
Please don't feed the trolls! You are doing sh*t with the forum...
Why does this have to turn into an argument about which is better? Isnt there room for both? Seriously - if there is a demand out there for hardcore, why not have a hardcore ladder? It doesnt hurt anyone does it?
LeoN wrote:
Why does this have to turn into an argument about which is better? Isnt there room for both? Seriously - if there is a demand out there for hardcore, why not have a hardcore ladder? It doesnt hurt anyone does it?


because eSports are made to have skill. Which does NOT exist in hc
Lux4ri wrote:
because eSports are made to have skill. Which does NOT exist in hc


Again have you really tried hardcore?
I think most of the people here flaming hardcore are just having a hard time describing why it's bad. If you have played BF3 at a high level you would understand that if you reduced the health even further everyone would die as flies. Trust me, there's more than enough camping in softcore and it would be extremely derpy with hardcore (scopes would be far too OP, imagine DRUNKKZ running around oneshotting everybody without even having to HS). 

The game isn't really balanced around hardcore, and if you really want to play hardcore ladder, why not make one yourself? If you really have so many friends who play hardcore, why not just work something out with them? I'm not against having a hardcore ladder, but knowing ESL it's gonna take months before you'll see something like it. Just make your own instead, it's not like ESL is gonna provide any prizes anyway emoticon-grin

EDIT: As an example of the balance, try using a shotgun on hardcore. Might even use slug. It's hilarious.
#1 is retarded
LeoN wrote:
Why does this have to turn into an argument about which is better? Isnt there room for both? Seriously - if there is a demand out there for hardcore, why not have a hardcore ladder? It doesnt hurt anyone does it?

Exactly, it doesn't. BF3 would be more active competitively because currently one half plays normal and the other half plays hardcore.

Lux4ri wrote:
because eSports are made to have skill. Which does NOT exist in hc

Invalid statement, otherwise my reflexes wouldn't be faster than anyone who plays normal mode.

Reacto wrote:
I think most of the people here flaming hardcore are just having a hard time describing why it's bad. If you have played BF3 at a high level you would understand that if you reduced the health even further everyone would die as flies. Trust me, there's more than enough camping in softcore and it would be extremely derpy with hardcore (scopes would be far too OP, imagine DRUNKKZ running around oneshotting everybody without even having to HS). 

The game isn't really balanced around hardcore, and if you really want to play hardcore ladder, why not make one yourself? If you really have so many friends who play hardcore, why not just work something out with them? I'm not against having a hardcore ladder, but knowing ESL it's gonna take months before you'll see something like it. Just make your own instead, it's not like ESL is gonna provide any prizes anyway emoticon-grin

EDIT: As an example of the balance, try using a shotgun on hardcore. Might even use slug. It's hilarious.

Thank you for your civilized response. But if everyone dies like flies then why is it we can win without dying with something like 42/0? Yes, you kill faster, but you also die faster making it vital to plan ahead and have incredible reflexes, it all evens out in the end.

Slugs have always been OP since they were introduced in Bad Company. By using DAO you can kill people with 2 shots in normal mode, note the DAO is semi-auto and fires way faster than any bolt action sniper which also requires 2 hits. Wouldn't the AWP in Counter Strike be quite useless if you needed 2 hits to kill? You'd be dead by the time you're ready to fire the second shot. The AWP is also faster to scope in with than any scope/sight in BF3. This is yet another reason why BF3 hardcore resembles CS more than normal mode.

oxide wrote:
#1 is retarded

Hi, troll.
Atm there are no plans to create a hardcore ladder for a gamemode.
If you want to play hardcore just ask the opponent.

-- 
With regards, crazybas EU admin
crazybas wrote:
Atm there are no plans to create a hardcore ladder for a gamemode.
If you want to play hardcore just ask the opponent.

Yes, that is why this topic exists. I want you (the ESL) to consider adding a hardcore ladder for at least Squad Rush. I don't see the reason why that would be such a problem? Surely you can afford the database storage another ladder and more players would take.
leaty wrote:
Yes, that is why this topic exists. I want you (the ESL) to consider adding a hardcore ladder for at least Squad Rush. I don't see the reason why that would be such a problem? Surely you can afford the database storage another ladder and more players would take.


There is no point in making such a ladder for 3-4 teams cause noone is interested to play this game in hardcore. 
Hardcore doesnt have much to do with esport and even Bf3 hasnt much to do with esport so dont make it worse.

-- 
ಠ̯ಠ
AMAR. wrote:
There is no point in making such a ladder for 3-4 teams cause noone is interested to play this game in hardcore. 
Hardcore doesnt have much to do with esport and even Bf3 hasnt much to do with esport so dont make it worse.

Your calculations are wrong, the ladder would be at least as full as the other one. Why do you insist in hating on hardcore when the damage resembles CS a lot, while normal mode's damage resembles COD. I think we can all agree that the much harder game Counter Strike is more competitive than Call of Duty? Yes?
leaty wrote:
Your calculations are wrong, the ladder would be at least as full as the other one. Why do you insist in hating on hardcore when the damage resembles CS a lot, while normal mode's damage resembles COD. I think we can all agree that the much harder game Counter Strike is more competitive than Call of Duty? Yes?


Give us info of those teams! I really dont believe that a hardcore 4v4 or 5v5 ladder would be as full as normal ladders. Same answer as others, ESL current rules are just fine and you can ask if your opponent wants to play hardcore mode. BF3 scene is so dead that we cant put up tons of ladders
Mrs_Miagi wrote:
Give us info of those teams! I really dont believe that a hardcore 4v4 or 5v5 ladder would be as full as normal ladders. Same answer as others, ESL current rules are just fine and you can ask if your opponent wants to play hardcore mode. BF3 scene is so dead that we cant put up tons of ladders

What if it isn't "dead", what if it just needs a hardcore ladder? I will try to put up a video of both Hardcore and Normal mode for comparison today or tomorrow.

Here's a couple of the most known hardcore clans:
TTT - http://thetacteam.com
syN - Elite Synergy
DUNITED - http://dunited.spruz.com (this is the clan that is forced to play on TWL with 200 ping for their competitive needs)
SMC - http://www.shevu.de (the best players in this clan play hardcore)
H.A.Z.E (This clan doesn't play BF3 anymore because there are no hardcore ladders. And this team gentlemen, was brutal)

But if you look at the serverlist there is a bunch more, I don't keep a notebook of the clans I happen to meet though. Hopefully I can convince someone with the videos I hope to upload soon.
leaty wrote:
Exactly, it doesn't. BF3 would be more active competitively because currently one half plays normal and the other half plays hardcore.


Invalid statement, otherwise my reflexes wouldn't be faster than anyone who plays normal mode.


Thank you for your civilized response. But if everyone dies like flies then why is it we can win without dying with something like 42/0? Yes, you kill faster, but you also die faster making it vital to plan ahead and have incredible reflexes, it all evens out in the end.

Slugs have always been OP since they were introduced in Bad Company. By using DAO you can kill people with 2 shots in normal mode, note the DAO is semi-auto and fires way faster than any bolt action sniper which also requires 2 hits. Wouldn't the AWP in Counter Strike be quite useless if you needed 2 hits to kill? You'd be dead by the time you're ready to fire the second shot. The AWP is also faster to scope in with than any scope/sight in BF3. This is yet another reason why BF3 hardcore resembles CS more than normal mode.


Hi, troll.


I don't think you get it, sorry. The reason you can get 42/0 without dying is because you play vs people who suck. And CS, really? BF3 would never resemble CS, because you can rezz people.
Reacto wrote:
I don't think you get it, sorry. The reason you can get 42/0 without dying is because you play vs people who suck. And CS, really? BF3 would never resemble CS, because you can rezz people.


It might be a public game, but if people die like flies I trust at least one noob could pull the trigger and spray me down, no? Please wait for the videos.

No, I'm not saying BF3 is like CS. However BF3's hardcore mode is more like CS than normal mode.
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